[joseph.pavelchak]

Greetings SpringfieldForum Team,

Perhaps someone can provide some guidance and also explain what I am doing wrong.
Equipment involved:
Hellcat OSP with manual safety
Bore laser
Training laser cartridge
Holosun 507K X2 RDO
Setup: The RDO is set up correctly to the bore laser.
The bore laser is replaced with the training laser cartridge
Tests and results:
The Hellcat is dry fired dozens of times and the point of impact is noted that it is always left-high at ~ 10 o’clock (relative to the RDO and target).
The training cartridge is removed and rotated to ~ 45° and re-installed.
Try fire is repeated and the results are closer to on-target but still left-high.
The training cartridge is again rotated and tests repeated.
This time the point of impact is always left low at about 8 o’clock.
Training cartridge is removed and replaced with bore laser. The RDO shows it is correct.

So, what am I doing wrong that the point of impact is always left-high or left-low. During the dry fire tests the Hellcat was benched to minimize trigger pull issues. Is it possible that the training laser cartridge is being slightly moved during stryker impact. The laser point of impact, at 10 meters, is ~ 15 mm left-high or left-low off on-target.

I was going to blame the training laser cartridge but when I use it in my G19.5 the point of impact is on target each time I try fire.

Am really new to all this so any help/guidance will be most appreciated.
Have a great and safe day/evening.

 

[WVSurveyor]

Greetings to you as well.

I've never really used a bore laser and training cartridges, so I'm not much help in that regard. Maybe someone on here is well versed on the matter. I suppose they were designed for and are good for practice during times when you can't get much live fire practice for one reason or the other. If you're using this equipment to sight it in though, nothing replaces a trip to the range with actual shooting. I would start at 7 yards, shoot a three shot group from a rest and adjust the RDO accordingly. Then I'd move the target back to maybe 10 yards and check, then 15. You can go back as far as you want, but I'd think for a concealed carry weapon such as the Hellcat, 25 yards would be as far as you need to go. If it's hitting well in that 7 to 15 yard range it would be good to go in my book.

 

[joseph.pavelchak]

Greetings to you as well.

I've never really used a bore laser and training cartridges, so I'm not much help in that regard. Maybe someone on here is well versed on the matter. I suppose they were designed for and are good for practice during times when you can't get much live fire practice for one reason or the other. If you're using this equipment to sight it in though, nothing replaces a trip to the range with actual shooting. I would start at 7 yards, shoot a three shot group from a rest and adjust the RDO accordingly. Then I'd move the target back to maybe 10 yards and check, then 15. You can go back as far as you want, but I'd think for a concealed carry weapon such as the Hellcat, 25 yards would be as far as you need to go. If it's hitting well in that 7 to 15 yard range it would be good to go in my book.

WVSurveyor, thank you for responding and comments. Yes, a trip to the range is planned but i first need to get a medical issue resolved -- am somewhat house-bound at present time.
Have a great day, Sir.

 

[WVSurveyor]

a trip to the range is planned but i first need to get a medical issue resolved -- am somewhat house-bound at present time.

Hope all goes well with your medical issue and you're back up and running in short order.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

So first let me say using a laser training cartridge is visually deceptive based on my experience.

• Shoot at target and laser dot flashed off center.
• Rotate cartridge and maybe better but never center.

Then I video recorded a few trigger pulls. What the video revealed was interesting

• that initial flash of laser dot was closer than I remembered but it moved AWAY from bullseye
• my brain was “seeing” final location before dot disappeared!!!

Think when lightning strikes versus Slo motion video of lightning. We see from cloud to earth but video reveals opposite.

Why does laser dot seem off? Well a couple of thoughts come to mind:

• you are looking down sight(s) with 1 eye which can’t see dot
• other eye sees dot but it is a parallax thing that now the brain is trying to show you both eyes and it moves the dot to make it make sense
• try closing eye and only looking down gun with aiming eye to see if the dot seems as bad
• if your trigger technique is not perfect and you pull left (most right handers do) then dot will seem left but I bet that is the end of flash

Example of laser moving while anticipating (push down) then shooting (snap up under recoil)

So set up your phone to record SLO MOTION video SO you can slow down dot flash. It will move more than U expect as you finish pulling trigger and everything that goes with that.
Shoot 1 or 2 times. Take note where you think dot hit and say it for recorder. Then during playback see if dot initially appears where you say.

A word about iron sights, red dots, and laser trainers - that is a busy sight picture. I have a hard time seeing laser trainer dot with Red Dot also visible. Can U turn down/off Red Dot? Video might help see actual laser trainer location if Red Dot gets in way.

 

[joseph.pavelchak]

So first let me say using a laser training cartridge is visually deceptive based on my experience.

• Shoot at target and laser dot flashed off center.
• Rotate cartridge and maybe better but never center.

Then I video recorded a few trigger pulls. What the video revealed was interesting

• that initial flash of laser dot was closer than I remembered but it moved AWAY from bullseye
• my brain was “seeing” final location before dot disappeared!!!

Think when lightning strikes versus Slo motion video of lightning. We see from cloud to earth but video reveals opposite.

Why does laser dot seem off? Well a couple of thoughts come to mind:

• you are looking down sight(s) with 1 eye which can’t see dot
• other eye sees dot but it is a parallax thing that now the brain is trying to show you both eyes and it moves the dot to make it make sense
• try closing eye and only looking down gun with aiming eye to see if the dot seems as bad
• if your trigger technique is not perfect and you pull left (most right handers do) then dot will seem left but I bet that is the end of flash

Example of laser moving while anticipating (push down) then shooting (snap up under recoil)
View attachment 3701

So set up your phone to record SLO MOTION video SO you can slow down dot flash. It will move more than U expect as you finish pulling trigger and everything that goes with that.
Shoot 1 or 2 times. Take note where you think dot hit and say it for recorder. Then during playback see if dot initially appears where you say.

A word about iron sights, red dots, and laser trainers - that is a busy sight picture. I have a hard time seeing laser trainer dot with Red Dot also visible. Can U turn down/off Red Dot? Video might help see actual laser trainer location if Red Dot gets in way.

Hello Sir,
Wow! Many thanks for taking time to respond with such a great analysis, which since, i find to be exactly as you have described. I will try the slow-mo video idea - which is a great idea. Reading your comment about using only my dominant eye, i tried that idea and yes, that made a difference. Nearly all the training i have attended, i was told to use both eyes so that is what i was doing during all this dry fire. What is really puzzling to me, and perhaps this will become more clear as i get better at using training cartridge in dry fire, is that i do not see any of these issues at all when using my Glock 19.5. Using the 19.5, the laser strike has always been right on-target. I have even tried rotating the training cartridge and that made no difference - - the laser strike was still on-target. So, my next experiment will be to field strip the new Hellcat and do a normal cleaning and lube. I was assuming that a new handgun right out of the box does not need cleaning but i may be totally wrong on that. What do you think about a brief cleaning?
Again, many thanks for your most appreciated comments and guidance. Have a great evening and a safe one as well.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

I “see” laser dot high left too but it seems a bit different per gun. A lot can alter your brain’s vision: basic white dot sights, fiber optic or tritium glow dot sights, and of course another bright red/green optic sight all compete for attention. Sight radius (barrel length) can play a factor too. Kind of why they say “eye witnesses” are unreliable.
So my one eye technique was only to evaluate how you see laser trainer. You can also swap hands and eye to see if the dot moves relative to primary hand. For real practice or actual shooting live ammo, both eyes open is my preferred technique.
Also you have a dominant eye which usually is same as dominant hand but not always. My friend is right handed but left eye dominant which means he uses left eye to sight pistols in his right hand! You can check for dominant eye by holding 1 finger out arm fully extended and cover a light switch around the room with both eyes open. Then close left eye. If light switch stays behind finger = right eye dominant. If light moves sideways relative to finger, left eye dominant. Some folks are equal with no dominant eye. Switch will move for both eyes.
1 other thing to check is distance to target. Try 5 ft and then as far away as possible to see if laser trainer is “off center” the same or more when further away. If the dot is off same amount then it’s probably your mind playing tricks. If off more with more distance then it could be aim, technique, or laser is off. Keep in mind you video this as well. Probably dot shows initially equally but you may pull/jerk it further off at end.
Last thing to try is mark laser trainer so you can see mark when in chamber - that way if laser is off you can see where mark is and adjust more reliably to find best way to insert. It can be hard loading cartridge consistently and rotating it 90° without a reference is harder than it seems in some guns as cartridge can fall into chamber and randomly bounce/rotate before it seats. I know I tried to rotate it 90° and it barely moves 10-20° based on how far mark traveled.

My final observation about these laser trainers - dot is “off” high as my mind sees it so I found myself purposefully aiming to compensate. But firing live ammo, I hit low so recoil or lack of it can affect how relaxed you are when trigger squeezing. I don’t anticipate laser so it seems to hit high but I must be anticipating live fire recoil so I hit low.

Good Luck.