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Would you purchase the Helllion or the Saint Edge Tactical ATC

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings everyone, I am a navy veteran and by black Friday, I plan on getting my first AR 15. I will have a budget of a little over $200. The two that I narrowed it down to are the new Helllion and the Springfield Saint Edge Tactical. Interesting that the barrel is bigger no the Saint Edge that is 18" vs 16". The weight on the Hellion is 8 lb and the Saint Edge is 10. The Hellion uses .566 and the Saint Edge .223. A few questions if they are the same design, why does the .223, generally cost 20-30% less/ Do they put more weight on the .556 bullet or does it have more of a punch? I like that the Saint Edge comes with a scope and red dot technology but that si not a deal breaker. I am pretty handy and can always buy a scope for $300-500 and solve that issue.
Which one would you suggest and why?
 

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Greetings everyone, I am a navy veteran and by black Friday, I plan on getting my first AR 15. I will have a budget of a little over $200. The two that I narrowed it down to are the new Helllion and the Springfield Saint Edge Tactical. Interesting that the barrel is bigger no the Saint Edge that is 18" vs 16". The weight on the Hellion is 8 lb and the Saint Edge is 10. The Hellion uses .566 and the Saint Edge .223. A few questions if they are the same design, why does the .223, generally cost 20-30% less/ Do they put more weight on the .556 bullet or does it have more of a punch? I like that the Saint Edge comes with a scope and red dot technology but that si not a deal breaker. I am pretty handy and can always buy a scope for $300-500 and solve that issue.
Which one would you suggest and why?
A 5.56 will shoot .223 a .223 should not shoot a 5.56 the rounds are similar but are not the same, same with 308 vs 7.62, but the rounds are opposite in this case. 308 is stronger than 7.62. I would get the 5.56 it gives you more round options.
 

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Very interesting So a 5.56 will shoot a .223 a .223 should not shoot a 4.45 but they are similar same with 308 vs 7.62 but you are saying it's opposite the .308 is stronger than the 7.62. Since I am a number, guy why is it some of them have the decimal point before the 10th like .223 or .308, where as others will have it after the whole number like 7.62 or 5.56?
What is interesting is on the price of the rifles, there is not that much difference between the two, I think they are less than $100 apart. However, I have noticed this why is it that the 5.56 bullets cost about 20-30% more is it because they are stronger?
Furthermore, I am being told that a rifle that can fire a 5.56, should be able to fire a .223.So that is what you mean by I have more options I believe, I could either fire with the 5.56 or the .223 but if i get a rifle that is only .223 compatible, then I am stuck with .223. Well the, that makes my decision easier, I am going with the Hellion. It seems like if you want a rifle that is half way decent and is 5.56 compatible, you are looking at a starting price tag of $2000.Well, like my CO would always like to say, "it costs to be the boss." I know those 5.56 bullets can get pricy. They are not as expensive as the 7.62 but they are more expensive than the .223.
Just an observation why is it that us gun owners never complain about the price of the expensive rifle, even if it costs $2000? We always complain about the cost of the ammo :) . To save on cost of ammo, do you recommend recycling bullets or could you even do that with a 5.56?
Furthermore, I am looking at a semi-automatic pistol, I see Springfield Armory came up with a Hellcat, did anyone have a chance to fire it and do you recommend one? If all goes according to my plans by black Friday, I should have the $2000 saved up. I'm just a starving grad student here at BYU, getting my masters in English lit. Hopefully I could teach and coach football.
I appreciate everyone's input.
 

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That's a better number on the budget. The Hellion should serve you well. I don't have a Hellcat but you can find a number of discussions about them on this site and also find lots of reviews on Youtube.
 

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Dimensionally, the 5.56x45 NATO and .223 Remington rounds have the same specifications, making them physically identical (most of the time.) The difference is in the pressure each is loaded to, where the NATO round has a higher max. Because of the higher pressure, you shouldn't shoot 5.56 in a chamber that is only rated for .223.

The important difference is the chamber specifications for each round, not the actual round. As I already mentioned there is the pressure difference, but additionally a 5.56 chamber will be slightly larger, and have a longer and looser freebore, the distance a bullet travels when fired before it get's to the rifling. This is done for more reliable function, but can result in loosing some accuracy. I believe it may also be the result of the official NATO spec not coming out until sometime around 1980, so there would be ammo manufactured before that is close to, but not exactly matching the later specifications and the looser chamber is specified to ensure compatibility, however, this is just my theory.

The .223 Wylde chamber for the Saint Edge is a hybrid, where the dimensions for the case body match the 5.56, but freebore is for .223, and is pressure rated for the higher 5.56 specifications. The idea is to get the reliable operation for feeding without a reduction in accuracy.

A rifle with a 5.56 NATO or .223 Wylde chamber can shoot both, and a .223 Remington should only be used with .223.

For 5.56 rounds, a part of the difference in price may come from the use of a stronger cartridge for the higher pressure, and they usually have the primer crimped in, adding another step to the loading process. This would be in addition to differences in the actual bullet used to meet whatever specification they were created for, i.e. having a steel penetrator in the thing. When comparing ammo prices you really need to get into the details.

From here we can go into a discussion on differences in ammo, where you start getting into different bullet weights and lengths, which may or may not result in different cartridge lengths that vary from the official specifications, but that's a different discussion.
 

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Very interesting So a 5.56 will shoot a .223 a .223 should not shoot a 4.45 but they are similar same with 308 vs 7.62 but you are saying it's opposite the .308 is stronger than the 7.62. Since I am a number, guy why is it some of them have the decimal point before the 10th like .223 or .308, where as others will have it after the whole number like 7.62 or 5.56?
What is interesting is on the price of the rifles, there is not that much difference between the two, I think they are less than $100 apart. However, I have noticed this why is it that the 5.56 bullets cost about 20-30% more is it because they are stronger?
Furthermore, I am being told that a rifle that can fire a 5.56, should be able to fire a .223.So that is what you mean by I have more options I believe, I could either fire with the 5.56 or the .223 but if i get a rifle that is only .223 compatible, then I am stuck with .223. Well the, that makes my decision easier, I am going with the Hellion. It seems like if you want a rifle that is half way decent and is 5.56 compatible, you are looking at a starting price tag of $2000.Well, like my CO would always like to say, "it costs to be the boss." I know those 5.56 bullets can get pricy. They are not as expensive as the 7.62 but they are more expensive than the .223.
Just an observation why is it that us gun owners never complain about the price of the expensive rifle, even if it costs $2000? We always complain about the cost of the ammo :) . To save on cost of ammo, do you recommend recycling bullets or could you even do that with a 5.56?
Furthermore, I am looking at a semi-automatic pistol, I see Springfield Armory came up with a Hellcat, did anyone have a chance to fire it and do you recommend one? If all goes according to my plans by black Friday, I should have the $2000 saved up. I'm just a starving grad student here at BYU, getting my masters in English lit. Hopefully I could teach and coach football.
I appreciate everyone's input.
Tu_s said it more elequantly then I did, I'm not a numbers guy, but I am a bang for my buck guy. I have the hellcat RDP, again more bang for my buck, I like it. as for the bullets, The 2000 dollar rifle is still here after you shoot that thousand dollars of rounds, the rounds, not so much. I did not really concern myself with the price of a round until I retired from the military and had to supply my own, now, every shot counts. I have a 357 snub nose, because I can fire .38 out of it at a cheaper cost per round but still carry .357 when I need to. Any way. Happy hunting for your new pew, pew.
 

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I have a Hellcat OSP (that's the reason for me joining this forum). Fine weapon. Accurate, easy to conceal. The size of your hand may dictate how well it would work for you. I suggest you find a range that has one in rental. Shoot everything you can before you make a decision. As for the Hellion/Saint debate. I own neither.

I own many AR-15 style rifles, everything from home-build ARs to an IWI X-95, multiple FNH SCARs, 16, 17, 20 (like your CO said, "it costs to be the boss."), Windham AR 308, and AR 7.62x51, plus a home built AR 7.62x51, and a home built AR 6.5 creedmoor using Aero parts (lower, upper, 2 stage trigger) and a Odin works XL tactical barrel with an Odin works Atlas comp. All modified to suit my needs.

So, what does that all mean? Absolutely nothing.

It's a matter of what you like and want. I don't worry about ammo cost, because I reload. So, shooting and staying well practiced is not an issue for me or my family.

Think of what your intent is for the weapon you purchase. Are you actually going to shoot it? Or just pull it out of the closet and ogle it or show it to friends, no offense intended. It sounds like you may have some apprehension about the cost of ammo. If that's a factor, grab one of the AR-22's by Tippman or SW. HK is even making one. They have the same controls has a "regular AR" and you can shoot it all day for next to nothing. And the cost is well below 2000.

There are many rifles out there that can be had for 800 or less. That include DPMS, Diamondback (they make some quality stuff) and SW. As a suggestion, buy an AR-22 and a lower priced AR. You get the best of both. An AR you can shoot all day long at low cost, and a standard AR for when the money for ammo is available. All at cost of well below 2000. You will then have money left over for ammo.

This post is not to down any rifle or manufacture. It's more about info and options.

Just one more thing... Anything that's FDE is way more accurate than any black or green rifle. Most of my rifles are FDE, including my SCARs.

:)
 
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